I've just had a mess around in MS Word and Calibri is slightly more distinct than Arial, for example, but seems a little confused to me as it uses serifs on number 1 but not on any letters or any other numbers.
If people send you documents that contain code where you want to be clear about what the letters are, they shouldn't use a sans serif font to print them out.

Not one single font should be confusing in the first place. Anyone designing any font where characters are indistinguishable is an idiot. Would you write by hand and make characters the same?

What you're talking about when you were at school is that you learned about serif'd fonts - the twiddly bits on numbers & letters are known as serifs.

No, they weren't called fonts, I was learning how to write, I'd never even heard of a computer. And we were taught to write so people could read what we'd written and not mistake it for something else.

If that's what you want, you need to change your screen font to a serif'd one like Times New Roman, though maybe Century or Georgia would suit you better. But, you know, computers can handle multiple fonts, so it's not as one-dimensional as a person's writing. That's kind of like the point.

The point is every single character must be unique or the font is just broken.

But to warn you, the reason screen fonts are sans serif is because serif'd fonts become really hard to read over time, with all those twiddly bits you need to see upsetting several points on every individual letter of every word of every sentence of every paragraph on every page. I <really> wouldn't recommend it.

I never said there should be a serif on everything, just on a few to make things unique, just the one, ell, eye characters I would think. The capital eye and the lower case ell have to be different in some way. There's no point in having a serif on a lower case d though.

You can disagree if you like but, going by the quote I posted which I very much agree with, you're wrong and just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean anyone should pay a second's worth of attention to it - lol.
Fortunately, computers can handle multiple fonts and if you want to use a serif'd or monospaced one, you can change it to your preference. Do that.

It's not possible for an opinion on what is easy to read to be wrong, since it's an opinion. The poster of your link is wrong because he claims that his is the only correct opinion. I accept that you and others may not need the extra space, but my personal preference and that of many people is to have a larger space between sentences. A forum should allow that to happen. Other forums do, so don't blame html or my browser. This forum adjusts both my spacing and my line breaks.

This is how I see your text.I think that's Arial. Notice the gap between the fullstop and the capital eye is the same as the space between each of your words. And I'm not including the gap above the fullstop, as that's not a gap, it's over it, not to the right of it.

Thanks. I hate to tell you this, but the spacing between words and after the fullstop in your screenshot is different. Specsavers it is, then.

Why don't you measure it objectively like I just did? With the image fullscreen, I get 4.5mm precisely between the fullstop and the next letter, and also 4.5mm precisely between original and hot.

And writing that you aren't counting the space above the fullstop doesn't take away from the fact it's there and that area adds to the distinction from the end of one sentence and the start of another.

So do you also count the space above other letters? What about below a quotation mark? You're just being silly now. The only thing that matters is the gap from the far right of one character to the far left of the other. Think about parking your car, you don't say you've left a 1 metre gap because there's space above your hood/bonnet.

What's actually happening here is you're desperately hanging onto a convention that was learned several decades ago on a technology that no longer exists (to all intents and purposes) to a character style that no longer exists (except when using monospaced fonts) and demanding conformance to that non-existing (and, let's be honest, nonsensical in the current context) standard.
I learned the same way as you. I know exactly where you're coming from. But in answer to your request to cater for a meaningless redundancy, the answer can only be "No, not ever". And also "shut up" and/or "tell someone who's interested, because it's not me".

No, I learned a way to write neatly, and stuck to it because it's easier to read. There was no need to stop doing it that way and definitely no need to prevent others from using their own style if they wish. This is communism.

Why does hypertext markup language use codes for formatting? Really?
I don't know. I looked up this thread on my phone after looking at it on my desktop and I could see the question just the same, but I still wasn't sure of the answer.
Maybe someone else can help... or maybe you already worked it out because you knew the answer before performatively asking it. You're not that dumb. Nor am I.

We're not talking about formatting, we're talking about the "space" character, which should be treated no differently to the "e" character, since they're both just as commonly used!

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I've just had a mess around in MS Word and Calibri is slightly more distinct than Arial, for example, but seems a little confused to me as it uses serifs on number 1 but not on any letters or any other numbers.
If people send you documents that contain code where you want to be clear about what the letters are, they shouldn't use a sans serif font to print them out.

Not one single font should be confusing in the first place. Anyone designing any font where characters are indistinguishable is an idiot. Would you write by hand and make characters the same?

It's amusing you're simultaneously so prescriptive while demanding a right to flexibility that meets your individual requirements - I'll just start with that.
Fonts (not really the right word, but I'll keep it basic) are as much a style-thing as a clarity thing. There ought to be consistency and clarity, but that applies to body fonts which is what we're talking about. But as I mentioned, Calibri avoids consistency to aid clarity on one character and not others, which is a little weird imo. But I already described the trade-offs. Sans serif fonts are less tiring to read, which is what's needed for body text, at the expense of clarity. But you'll also be aware (I assume) that for body text, no-one's reading every single letter to make up a word, so it's the aesthetic that overrides the detail. This takes us back to your point about whether you're reading text or reading code where every character counts. Which is why I say it makes no sense to demand the use of the same font for two very different purposes.

What you're talking about when you were at school is that you learned about serif'd fonts - the twiddly bits on numbers & letters are known as serifs.

No, they weren't called fonts, I was learning how to write, I'd never even heard of a computer. And we were taught to write so people could read what we'd written and not mistake it for something else.

It doesn't matter if you were told the name or not - you're explaining you learned with characters that were serif'd.
And you're right that no-one had heard of computers - for obvious reasons. Which is precisely why different conventions need to apply, meaning old ones that didn't predict reading from screens may no longer apply.

If that's what you want, you need to change your screen font to a serif'd one like Times New Roman, though maybe Century or Georgia would suit you better. But, you know, computers can handle multiple fonts, so it's not as one-dimensional as a person's writing. That's kind of like the point.

The point is every single character must be unique or the font is just broken.

It's almost like you've never seen posters or magazines or adverts that use fonts in very different ways.
If you were to take a look at script-style fonts you'll actually find many of the letters are quite illegible, as weird as C, P, T & Y. Clarity isn't the only purpose

But to warn you, the reason screen fonts are sans serif is because serif'd fonts become really hard to read over time, with all those twiddly bits you need to see upsetting several points on every individual letter of every word of every sentence of every paragraph on every page. I <really> wouldn't recommend it.

I never said there should be a serif on everything, just on a few to make things unique, just the one, ell, eye characters I would think. The capital eye and the lower case ell have to be different in some way. There's no point in having a serif on a lower case d though.

You didn't. And by not doing so you're actually saying you want the font to be incoherent for the sake of your personal version of clarity. Well, you're more likely to get that with the serif'd fonts, as I already explained ages ago, so use them. Personally I think Century is slightly better than TNR, but take your own pick. It's available to you on your own computer right this second. Don't complain to me about it - do what you like on your own screen, as long as I don't have to do it too.

You can disagree if you like but, going by the quote I posted which I very much agree with, you're wrong and just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean anyone should pay a second's worth of attention to it - lol.
Fortunately, computers can handle multiple fonts and if you want to use a serif'd or monospaced one, you can change it to your preference. Do that.

It's not possible for an opinion on what is easy to read to be wrong, since it's an opinion. The poster of your link is wrong because he claims that his is the only correct opinion. I accept that you and others may not need the extra space, but my personal preference and that of many people is to have a larger space between sentences. A forum should allow that to happen. Other forums do, so don't blame html or my browser. This forum adjusts both my spacing and my line breaks.

As I said, you can disagree if you like. As I quote your reply I see all your double-spaces and imo it looks grotesque. It's in the aesthetic sense that it's wrong. The forum display of posted messages relieves me of having to see it, which I appreciate and I'm glad it does what it does. Have you thought of using the [ code ] tags? I don't know if that'll work.

This is how I see your text.I think that's Arial. Notice the gap between the fullstop and the capital eye is the same as the space between each of your words. And I'm not including the gap above the fullstop, as that's not a gap, it's over it, not to the right of it.

Thanks. I hate to tell you this, but the spacing between words and after the fullstop in your screenshot is different. Specsavers it is, then.

Why don't you measure it objectively like I just did? With the image fullscreen, I get 4.5mm precisely between the fullstop and the next letter, and also 4.5mm precisely between original and hot.

Do you? I get 6mm and 9mm. Christ, you've got me getting a ruler out - what have I become?

And writing that you aren't counting the space above the fullstop doesn't take away from the fact it's there and that area adds to the distinction from the end of one sentence and the start of another.

So do you also count the space above other letters? What about below a quotation mark? You're just being silly now. The only thing that matters is the gap from the far right of one character to the far left of the other. Think about parking your car, you don't say you've left a 1 metre gap because there's space above your hood/bonnet.

Space above or below the character within the character height within the font is white space, yes. And the space between a full-stop and capital A, V, D & T is different too, which is why proportional characters have kerning built into them. And that's before thinking about justified text which involves stretching spaces and sometimes character-spacing as well. Spaces aren't just spaces, measured in ones or twos.
And it's best not to get into my old printing days when I'd hand-set a page, print an example and find rivers of white space running through paragraphs requiring manual re-spacing. Don't get me started. None of this new.
Thank God for computers handling all this stuff for us within new conventions designed for them to an aesthetic style that doesn't look plug-ugly, like some antideluvian desire to have massive and horrible big blocks of space to suit a clunky technology that was thankfully scrapped decades ago.

Why does hypertext markup language use codes for formatting? Really?
I don't know. I looked up this thread on my phone after looking at it on my desktop and I could see the question just the same, but I still wasn't sure of the answer.
Maybe someone else can help... or maybe you already worked it out because you knew the answer before performatively asking it. You're not that dumb. Nor am I.

We're not talking about formatting, we're talking about the "space" character, which should be treated no differently to the "e" character, since they're both just as commonly used!

We are talking about formatting - you just don't appreciate it.
Sentence spacing isn't word spacing and is relative to font design, output device. character-combinations, justification and sometimes even more obscure factors.
What relevance pressing the space bar twice has is, frankly, nothing to do with anything.
If it bugs you that much, change your screen font in the way I've repeatedly described. If you do, I feel sure you'll change back before long, but at least I won't have to hear about it any more, whatever you decide

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It's amusing you're simultaneously so prescriptive while demanding a right to flexibility that meets your individual requirements - I'll just start with that.
Fonts (not really the right word, but I'll keep it basic) are as much a style-thing as a clarity thing. There ought to be consistency and clarity, but that applies to body fonts which is what we're talking about. But as I mentioned, Calibri avoids consistency to aid clarity on one character and not others, which is a little weird imo. But I already described the trade-offs. Sans serif fonts are less tiring to read, which is what's needed for body text, at the expense of clarity. But you'll also be aware (I assume) that for body text, no-one's reading every single letter to make up a word, so it's the aesthetic that overrides the detail. This takes us back to your point about whether you're reading text or reading code where every character counts. Which is why I say it makes no sense to demand the use of the same font for two very different purposes.

It doesn't even have to be code to look daft. I can write the word Ill (as in unwell), and I just get three straight lines in most fonts. And it's not just code where you have to know what it is, it could be a password, a username, or a web address you're trying to type in. It's just not that hard to make every character different, and it would make it faster to read if your brain can see what every letter is and not have to assume by context. when I was taught to write at school, the lower case L had a curve at the bottom, the upper case eye has two legs and a hat. Ill looks a lot better that way. The spacing sux aswell, I often read modern as modem because the r and n are too close together.

And you're right that no-one had heard of computers - for obvious reasons. Which is precisely why different conventions need to apply, meaning old ones that didn't predict reading from screens may no longer apply.

Why would reading from a screen change anything?

It's almost like you've never seen posters or magazines or adverts that use fonts in very different ways.
If you were to take a look at script-style fonts you'll actually find many of the letters are quite illegible, as weird as C, P, T & Y. Clarity isn't the only purpose

Adverts where you can't even read the name of the company are absurd. The primary function of lettering is being able to read it.

You didn't. And by not doing so you're actually saying you want the font to be incoherent for the sake of your personal version of clarity. Well, you're more likely to get that with the serif'd fonts, as I already explained ages ago, so use them. Personally I think Century is slightly better than TNR, but take your own pick. It's available to you on your own computer right this second. Don't complain to me about it - do what you like on your own screen, as long as I don't have to do it too.

I don't need a serif on everything, they're like you said slower to read. But they're necessary where letters would become identical.

As I said, you can disagree if you like. As I quote your reply I see all your double-spaces and imo it looks grotesque. It's in the aesthetic sense that it's wrong. The forum display of posted messages relieves me of having to see it, which I appreciate and I'm glad it does what it does. Have you thought of using the [ code ] tags? I don't know if that'll work.

Too much hassle just to make something look neater. Far easier to tell when a new sentence starts if there's a bigger gap. You'd naturally pause for longer in speech at that point too.

This is how I see your text.I think that's Arial. Notice the gap between the fullstop and the capital eye is the same as the space between each of your words. And I'm not including the gap above the fullstop, as that's not a gap, it's over it, not to the right of it.

Thanks. I hate to tell you this, but the spacing between words and after the fullstop in your screenshot is different. Specsavers it is, then.

Why don't you measure it objectively like I just did? With the image fullscreen, I get 4.5mm precisely between the fullstop and the next letter, and also 4.5mm precisely between original and hot.

Do you? I get 6mm and 9mm. Christ, you've got me getting a ruler out - what have I become?

You must be including the space above the fullstop. Why are you doing that?

What relevance pressing the space bar twice has is, frankly, nothing to do with anything.

It has to do with the user wanting two spaces. Why do the opposite of what the users asked? some forums let me do it, some don't. It's a bug!

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Christ...

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Christ...

Cannot help you in your time of need. It's all a big conspiracy I tell you, we don't have freedoms any more.

---

New Error Generator Host ^^ https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/results.php?hostid=6019780

New Error Generator Host ^^ https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/results.php?hostid=6019780

Owner anonymous, oh dear....

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New Error Generator Host ^^ https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/results.php?hostid=6019780

ERROR: Cannot find database file: 'minirosetta_databasechemicalring_conformer_setsfd_alternate/5-membered_aromatic_ring_conformers.data'

Possibly the AV programme doesn't like the activity so it's killing off the database files as they are downloaded and so the Tasks error out.

Looks like they're now down to 1 Task per day. And that's all they'll be able to get each day unless they start to return some Valid work.

---

Grant
Darwin NT

New Error Generator Host ^^ https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/results.php?hostid=6019780

ERROR: Cannot find database file: 'minirosetta_databasechemicalring_conformer_setsfd_alternate/5-membered_aromatic_ring_conformers.data'

Possibly the AV programme doesn't like the activity so it's killing off the database files as they are downloaded and so the Tasks error out.

Looks like they're now down to 1 Task per day. And that's all they'll be able to get each day unless they start to return some Valid work.

I use AVG, it virtually never complains about Boinc things. I didn't know when it did though, because of it's absurd amount of ads popping up, I have it running in "silent mode" all the time, a mode they created to silence popups from other programs when playing a game. But it's very good at silencing itself all the time!

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New Error Generator Host ^^ https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/results.php?hostid=6019780

ERROR: Cannot find database file: 'minirosetta_databasechemicalring_conformer_setsfd_alternate/5-membered_aromatic_ring_conformers.data'

Possibly the AV programme doesn't like the activity so it's killing off the database files as they are downloaded and so the Tasks error out.

Looks like they're now down to 1 Task per day. And that's all they'll be able to get each day unless they start to return some Valid work.

Could be this too: BOINC version 7.0.80

New Error Generator Host ^^ https://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/results.php?hostid=6019780

ERROR: Cannot find database file: 'minirosetta_databasechemicalring_conformer_setsfd_alternate/5-membered_aromatic_ring_conformers.data'

Possibly the AV programme doesn't like the activity so it's killing off the database files as they are downloaded and so the Tasks error out.

Looks like they're now down to 1 Task per day. And that's all they'll be able to get each day unless they start to return some Valid work.

Could be this too: BOINC version 7.0.80

I think Boinc is the only program that doesn't autoupdate. We're living in the last century.

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I think Boinc is the only program that doesn't autoupdate. We're living in the last century.

Which is a good thing.
If it's not broken, why update?
If you do update, then do it when you want to, not as soon as an update is available & is still full of bugs. Wait for the update to be fixed, then update if you feel the need.

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Grant
Darwin NT

I think Boinc is the only program that doesn't autoupdate. We're living in the last century.

Which is a good thing.
If it's not broken, why update?
If you do update, then do it when you want to, not as soon as an update is available & is still full of bugs. Wait for the update to be fixed, then update if you feel the need.

Mostly updates help. But you should be told "there's an update". And definitely not what M$ do and reboot your system, corrupting several climate prediction tasks that had been running for a week. And if you moan about it, everyone says "But why didn't you save? Office saves the document itself..." Yeah, we all use PCs for just Office.... Oh and if you haven't manually saved it yet, there is no autosave.

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I think Boinc is the only program that doesn't autoupdate. We're living in the last century.

Which is a good thing.
If it's not broken, why update?
If you do update, then do it when you want to, not as soon as an update is available & is still full of bugs. Wait for the update to be fixed, then update if you feel the need.

Mostly updates help. But you should be told "there's an update". And definitely not what M$ do and reboot your system, corrupting several climate prediction tasks that had been running for a week. And if you moan about it, everyone says "But why didn't you save? Office saves the document itself..." Yeah, we all use PCs for just Office.... Oh and if you haven't manually saved it yet, there is no autosave.

Boinc DOES tell us when updates are available just read the Notices tab in Boinc, it even tells you when there are new messages unless you turned them off, as you did Peter. And YES I did too as most of the Notices are spam to me and I couldn't care less about them BUT it doesn't change the fact that the Boinc updates are still in there.

Boinc DOES tell us when updates are available just read the Notices tab in Boinc, it even tells you when there are new messages unless you turned them off, as you did Peter. And YES I did too as most of the Notices are spam to me and I couldn't care less about them BUT it doesn't change the fact that the Boinc updates are still in there.

If you’ve installed from the Linux repositories then it does auto-update

Boinc DOES tell us when updates are available just read the Notices tab in Boinc, it even tells you when there are new messages unless you turned them off, as you did Peter. And YES I did too as most of the Notices are spam to me and I couldn't care less about them BUT it doesn't change the fact that the Boinc updates are still in there.

I haven't turned them off. I've just got them not popping up unless I notice the "Notices (5)" tab meaning I have 5 messages. Boinc just can't be bothered telling me about updates.

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Boinc DOES tell us when updates are available just read the Notices tab in Boinc, it even tells you when there are new messages unless you turned them off, as you did Peter. And YES I did too as most of the Notices are spam to me and I couldn't care less about them BUT it doesn't change the fact that the Boinc updates are still in there.

I haven't turned them off. I've just got them not popping up unless I notice the "Notices (5)" tab meaning I have 5 messages. Boinc just can't be bothered telling me about updates.

These are mine that are under the Notices tab right now:

Einstein@Home: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for AMD/ATI GPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site, or remove GPU exclusions in your cc_config.xml file.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amicable Numbers: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for NVIDIA GPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amicable Numbers: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for AMD/ATI GPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
collatz: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for CPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice from BOINC
A new version of BOINC is available (7.16.11). Download
2/5/2021 1:59:22 PM · more...

You can see that in Windows Boinc does tell us when there is a new version. And NO I do not want it auto updating at all, I get enough of that stuff with Windows10!

These are mine that are under the Notices tab right now:

Einstein@Home: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for AMD/ATI GPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site, or remove GPU exclusions in your cc_config.xml file.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amicable Numbers: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for NVIDIA GPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amicable Numbers: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for AMD/ATI GPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
collatz: Notice from BOINC
Your settings do not allow fetching tasks for CPU. To fix this, you can change Project Preferences on the project's web site.
2/5/2021 1:59:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice from BOINC
A new version of BOINC is available (7.16.11). Download
2/5/2021 1:59:22 PM · more...

You can see that in Windows Boinc does tell us when there is a new version. And NO I do not want it auto updating at all, I get enough of that stuff with Windows10!

Those notices are unreliable. For example I got a notice that there was a reply in the Kryptos thread about 5 days after it was posted. Yet my machines are contacting the server once an hour....

I agree with you on Windows 10, I've disabled mine with policy editor. But a program should offer you the new version.

I'm fine with autoupdates if they're done silently though, eg. browsers do it when you next happen to restart the browser, and don't interrupt you like the idiots at M$ do.

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