that, and it uses proprietary hardware for upgrades / add-on's, whereas the Sony Playstation was desgined as an open platform, and uses commercially available hardware (i.e., hdd's, memory cards, etc).

As zombie67 pointed out in this post:

"To be clear, F@H, PS3GRID, and yoyo@home applications all use the SPEs. SIMAP has a generic PPC/linux application that will run on the PS3, but it uses only the PPC/PPE controller, and has the expecte performance of a G4 Mac. Someone on SETI@home created a non-SPE app, but I haven't seen any further development with it since S@H moved to multibeam. Hydrogen@home has plans for a PS3 application, but no details or timeline."

Which are some of thre reasons I am disappointed by all the silence from the Project to my questions.

(i know it's an old post) installing linux on the xbox isn't a trivial task due to the hypervisor and other security measures - free60.org are working on it but it's not possible ATM (in any worthwhile context) without MS's approval...

that, and it uses proprietary hardware for upgrades / add-on's, whereas the Sony Playstation was desgined as an open platform, and uses commercially available hardware (i.e., hdd's, memory cards, etc).

As zombie67 pointed out in this post:

"To be clear, F@H, PS3GRID, and yoyo@home applications all use the SPEs. SIMAP has a generic PPC/linux application that will run on the PS3, but it uses only the PPC/PPE controller, and has the expecte performance of a G4 Mac. Someone on SETI@home created a non-SPE app, but I haven't seen any further development with it since S@H moved to multibeam. Hydrogen@home has plans for a PS3 application, but no details or timeline."

Which are some of thre reasons I am disappointed by all the silence from the Project to my questions.

(i know it's an old post) installing linux on the xbox isn't a trivial task due to the hypervisor and other security measures - free60.org are working on it but it's not possible ATM (in any worthwhile context) without MS's approval...

The 360 uses a PPC CPU, a standard HD, ethernet, and USB so i don't think any of that's a limitation???

From free60.org:

Linux Support

* We have full SMP support, so we can use all three cores.
* However, we currently need to disable the secondary threads because of a yet-to-be analyzed stability issue.
* The CPU is quite slow on general purpose code. Due to the non out-of-order execution core, it heavily relies on the compiler to do proper optimizations. GCC currently doesn't know how to do this, resulting in running but very inefficient code.
* The Cell people are working on ppu-gcc, from which the Xenon will benefit as well, as the PPC cores is quite similiar to the Cell's PPU.

I don't know how a lack of out-of-order would affect rosetta?

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My understanding, and I am willing to be proven wrong, is that the xBox360 uses a proprietary hard drive sold by M$ at a very premium price (~ $100 for 20gb), as opposed to Sony's PS/3 which uses standard 2.5" laptop drives.

My understanding, and I am willing to be proven wrong, is that the xBox360 uses a proprietary memory card sold by M$ at a very premium price (~ $50 for 512mb), as opposed to Sony's PS/3 which, as I understand it:

"The PS3 doesn't have an external (moveable) memory card, it saves onto the hard drive like a computer, its all inside the PS3.

There are other memory cards/flash drives that can be used, I'm not sure which but most are media storage/flash disk type hardware."

The 360 uses a PPC CPU, a standard HD, ethernet, and USB so i don't think any of that's a limitation???

Sony's PS/3 was designed from the beginning as an open platform, capable of running linux.

The xBox must either get "permission" from M$, or put together an entire third-party effort such as free60.org

From free60.org:

Linux Support

* However, we currently need to disable the secondary threads because of a yet-to-be analyzed stability issue.

the 360 has 3 3.2Ghz asymmetrical cores, but Rosetta probably would only be able to run on 2 of those at best for any extended amount of time. Keep in mind that Gears of War, the Xbox 360 game, was the first game to utilize all three cores, and Oblivion, Kameo and such were running on two cores. I'd be weary of running a 360 for any extended amount of time due to it's terrible airflow, but that might change with those new "falcon" 65nm processors in the newer xboxs. If they can get it to run stably on the 360 though, I'm sure it would be worth the effort because a greater percentage of owners would run it than on any other console. Why? Because so many people have the 360 connected to the internet for Xbox Live. This is as opposed to the Wii, PS3 where there are a good deal of people who play said consoles regularly but don't have it connected to the internet whatsoever. I mean, you could release R@H for the PS2 thinking that no matter how bad its hardware is, it would pay off because the PS2 sold ~105 million. But how many people have it running linux and connected to the internet? Compare that to Xbox live, where a large percentage of owners have it connected via broadband and download stuff regularly.

(1) Sony worked with Stanford, and brought the PS/3 to Folding@Home. Enabling F@H to break the petaflop barrier with the PS/3's alone.

(2) The PS/3 is able to use all 6 of it's SPE's on Yoyo@Home (OGR-25).

(3) The PS/3 is able to use all 6 of it's SPE's on PS3Grid.

(4) The PS/3 is able to run Simap.

(5) How many existing dc/Boinc projects is the MS xBox presently running?

(6) Sony designed the PS/3 with an "open" architecture. Linux is easily installable. MS xBox is "closed" architecture.

(7) Sony designed the PS/3 with commercially available hardware (2.5" laptop drives, usb memory sticks). MS xBox is proprietary.

(8) The new CBE has double precision math. I don't know, does the "falcon"?

(9) MS is spending $1,000,000,000 on repairing xBox's for heat related failures. Even if this has been "fixed" in current consoles, there's probably a lot of people with long memories, "once bitten, twice shy". You'll lose these people.

This is as opposed to the Wii, PS3

Stumbled across this posting on the BoincStats forum:

"The PS3 has a special function to let you install another operating system. In contrast, the xbox360 has many special mechanisms to make sure you can't get any software running on it unless it's digitally signed by Microsoft or a licensed game-maker. That includes Linux.

Of course there's already hacks that let you get Linux on it (search "free60" ), but it's not easy to install, and it might be illegal. It won't work if you have an up-to-date xbox kernel as it relies on a security bug in older kernels, and you need to patch a game disc image (which involves having the original game in the first place). Maybe also remove a resistor from the mainboard."

The XBOX360 was hacked and it is posible to let Linux running on it : http://www.free60.org.
As reading the hardware specs, I think it is posible to let the existing Linux PPC BOINC client, SIMAP Linux PPC applications or Linux SETI application running on the XBOX.
Am I right, that the Linux PPC/Power binaries should work at the Xbox with Linux ?
Is anyone interested to try it out ?
But, I am not shure, if the hardware problems of the XBOX makes it imposible to let CPU intensive tasks running on it.

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As per my previous post:

"but it's not easy to install, and it might be illegal."

I don't know how many projects would get involved when MS would likely have a legitimate legal claim. (and "yes", i do have an american law degree)

The XBOX360 was hacked and it is posible to let Linux running on it : http://www.free60.org.

As per my previous post:

"but it's not easy to install, and it might be illegal."

I don't know how many projects would get involved when MS would likely have a legitimate legal claim. (and "yes", i do have an american law degree)

The XBOX360 was hacked and it is posible to let Linux running on it : http://www.free60.org.

Why it should be illegal ? - You own the hardware and not M$. So it is your own responability what you do with your own hardware.
Also the most worse thing is to loss guaranty from M$.

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Why it should be illegal ?

At best, attempts to install Linux on an xBox voids the warranty, and falls into a gray area. At worst, its illegal.

There are no such concerns with the PS/3. Yellow Dog Linux is the "unofficial" linux distro of choice for the PS/3, and installing it won't void your warranty.



If you were a Boinc platform, with little extra funds to potentially utilize to retain legal counsel and set aside for a potential judgment against you...

which platform would YOU choose?



And don't forget that MS is spending $1,000,000,000 to repair xBoxes for heat-related hardware failures.

And what do Boinc projects do? Max out the cpu, and generate maximum heat.

I could see some crazy donor whose xBox suffers a heat-related failure finding an equally crazy lawyer to sue a Boinc project for the damage, since they should have known the xBox platform would cause that to occur.

Likely to win? No, but the Boinc project would still have to pay to defend it self.



Again, I ask: which platform would YOU choose?


Many times, the threat of suing is just as effective as suing



xBox Modification - Is All of This Legal?

"The "Free-X" group released its exploit amid threats from Microsoft to sue them..."



Microsoft approval sought for Xbox Linux project

"What this group is effectively asking Microsoft to do is to facilitate the running of unlicensed software on the Xbox - a system which is already subsidised to the tune of about $150 per unit in the hopes that it will eventually pay back its costs through software licensing revenues. Allowing Linux to run on the system would be an open invitation to computer users everywhere to buy Xboxes as low-cost, highly subsidised PCs rather than as games consoles - a scenario which Microsoft is desperately trying to avoid by cracking down on mod chips."


Hackers use Xbox for more than games

"installing Linux and building media hubs fall into the gray area of what rights owners have to change a technology once they've paid for it."

Why would it be illegal to install linux on an XBox? Same reason reverse-engineering your Intel CPU is illegal, or more closely, the same reason hacking DRM is (often) illegal; not everything is about physical possession. There are tons of IP laws that muddy stuff like this up.

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Why would it be illegal to install linux on an XBox? Same reason reverse-engineering your Intel CPU is illegal, or more closely, the same reason hacking DRM is (often) illegal; not everything is about physical possession. There are tons of IP laws that muddy stuff like this up.

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.

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oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.

to summarise, correct me if im wrong, im the 16 yo here :P

microsoft has copyright of the OS of the xbox, and copyright of the xbox that only microsoft's OS can be used. so installing another OS is violating copyright laws.

oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.

until the issue is decided in a court, there is no "absolute" answer.

microsoft would likely agree with your statement.

free60 would likely disagree with your statement.


now the question is, who wants to spend a whole bunch of time and money, to determine who is correct?

a boinc project that is considering the use of a gaming console? probably not.


thus, one more reason why the sony ps/3 would be a better choice among gaming consoles for use as a cruncher.

oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.

Fine, it's arguably illegal in some places. US law only applies in the US.

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until the issue is decided in a court, there is no "absolute" answer.

microsoft would likely agree with your statement.

free60 would likely disagree with your statement.


now the question is, who wants to spend a whole bunch of time and money, to determine who is correct?

a boinc project that is considering the use of a gaming console? probably not.


thus, one more reason why the sony ps/3 would be a better choice among gaming consoles for use as a cruncher.

well the ps3 is ofc. a nice platform, but if we wait for this trial and the outcome is that microsoft is wrong. then it would mean we could do this, and then i dont think you have to make a lot of changes, run linux on your 360 and then install boinc under linux.

Have you researched the Sklyarov matter?

Apparently, the United States government would seem to disagree with you, to wit:

US law CAN apply outside the US.


That is one of the "interesting" things about Sklyarov's arrest.


I am not saying that I agree with such a position of the US government, only that the US government disagrees with your position.

oh no?

Dmitry Sklyarov

none of the things you mentioned are illegal.

Fine, it's arguably illegal in some places. US law only applies in the US.

That is one of my points. Currently, there is no "trial". No one wants to spend the time or money in court.

"Maybe" if free60.org succeeds, and it becomes very popular, and it causes Microsoft to sell less games (remember, MS loses money with each xBox they sell, and "hope" to make money with the sale of games. If people
buy the xBox as a cheap linux computer, or home theater system, and then don't buy games, it could be argued that MS has been financially "harmed"), then MAYBE there will be a court case.

Too much uncertainity. And if you were a financially poor Boinc project, wouldn't you want "certainty" that you wouldn't be liable for encouraging the allegedly illegal use of a particular gaming console?

The Sony PS/3 can provide you with that "certainty", the MS xBox (until MS says otherwise) can't.

but if we wait for this trial and the outcome is that microsoft is wrong.

Have you investigated this? I believe you have to "hardware hack" to get free60 linux to work.

How many average families that own a xBox are going to "hardware hack" in order to run Boinc?

The hack is: "It won't work if you have an up-to-date xbox kernel as it relies on a security bug in older kernels, and you need to patch a game disc image (which involves having the original game in the first place). Maybe also remove a resistor from the mainboard."

and the outcome is that microsoft is wrong. then it would mean we could do this, and then i dont think you have to make a lot of changes

Have you researched the Sklyarov matter?

Apparently, the United States government would seem to disagree with you, to wit:

US law CAN apply outside the US.


That is one of the "interesting" things about Sklyarov's arrest.


I am not saying that I agree with such a position of the US government, only that the US government disagrees with your position.

No, I have not researched it, I must confess. However, many large companies (including Microsoft) have been trying to shut down 'The Pirate Bay', citing, the millennium act and endlessly threatening with law suits. They have failed because Pirate Bay simply replies (usually in a childish and vulgar manner) that it doesn't apply in Sweden. Maybe it works in Russia, because Russia doesn't have much of a justice system?

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